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Post by 5m4llP0X on Mar 12, 2005 2:41:09 GMT -5
Ok. In hopes to inspire SOME sort of debates, I'm going with a fun one: The right to bare arms.
As we all know: The constitution is an old doctrine established in hopes to best govern our people, during our newly established times. Now, the question is: Should these laws created by our fore fathers still hold weight in our modern times? On a more specific point: The second amendment. Many believe that back when the constitution was created, the second amendment was only set in effect for our protection from the British. Now that we are a large and powerful nation, with one of the best armies in the world, do we still need the right to bare arms? And if so, where is the limit? Should we be aloud to have handguns, automatic weapons, shotguns, or even high-powered rifles? Where does the line from avid gun collector end and potential threat to our military begin? I’m withholding my comment in hopes for a response to my questions. Once this begins, I may chose to chime in with my opinion. (Unless everyone else here shares my opinion. In which case, I might try and debate the other side.)
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Post by TheLance on Mar 12, 2005 5:47:33 GMT -5
Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Guns just make it really easy, which is why people shouldn't be allowed to have them. And why I'm glad I don't live in a country where any old clot can get one.
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Post by 5m4llP0X on Mar 12, 2005 13:22:17 GMT -5
Gee...This is not helping. HP, I'm trying man...I really am. Before we start this. I do consider myself VERY leftist in nature. My only exception is that I am a firm believer in the Constitution. It was created for a reason, and it's not as a doormat. I do have to agree with you, Lance. Guns themselves do not harm people. But when only a select few people are aloud to get hold of them, that's when we begin to have issues. Banning guns will not work. We tried this with liquor and we got organized crime. Because of this, people like Al Capone became national heroes to the people. If banned, all it will do is create an even larger black market for even more lethal guns. (You cannot hope to wage a war against the US military with mere pistols and rifles.) If banned, common thugs will become champions of the people, (Much like Al Capone) and we will have a national crisis on our hands. (Especially in Louisiana) Limiting who can and cannot get guns does not work either. Right now all gun related crimes happen because they know the person they’re going after most likely does not have a gun themselves. In the 1920’s there was a reason why people where much more polite. If you where looking to pick a fight with another person, there always was a good chance you’d find yourself shot by a Derringer. If you didn’t want that, then you’d be more apt to talk out your issues with the other. My idea: Sanction heavy restrictions on all assault-related weapons high-powered rifles, and combat-shotguns while lightening the sanction on pistols, shotguns, and hunting/sport rifles. Pistols where made for easy personal-defense. You can hide a pistol, but still let it be known that you are armed. This will keep those who are looking for trouble at bay, and free your arms up so you won’t have to lug around a large weapon. Shotguns are good for home-defense. At 3 AM when some idiot decides to break into your home, it takes the cops 10+ minutes to get there. With a pistol, it’s hard to hit when you cannot see. Same with a rifle. A shotgun really does not require aiming. Just point and click. Everyone, including the idiot who just broke in, knows that it does not require skill to shoot a shotgun. It just requires a sturdy shoulder and the barrel aimed in his general direction. Rifles are made for hunting. You cannot hunt with a pistol, and shotguns remove all the sport from it. You do not need a G36, or an AR-15 in order to kill a deer. A simple bolt action will work fine. Also, there should be a great deal of gun safety in play. We have things like drivers education, so why not Gun education? This will help educate and inform people on the true nature of weapons. Without something like this, people will not respect the responsibility of owning such a thing.
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Post by Zer0 on Mar 12, 2005 13:50:12 GMT -5
AS A FORMER NRA MEMBER (ducks a barage of people throwing shit), I really liked shooting on the range. Why? Because I liked the smell of gunpower. I was more accurate than the old farts who've been doing this for 20+ years... I have plaques to prove it. I am strongly against hunting with exception of population control. Then agian, I also agree that if we control the deer population, we need to control the human population as well. (but thats another story). I think we need guns (in today's society) for one main reason: self defense IN OUR OWN HOMES. I don't think people should carry guns on the street. There's no need for it. However, I'm a 5'2" 115lbs female. I chave taken down a few people who are bigger than me. Many of them males. But if there's a 250lb dude breaking into my house to rape me, and I can't get to the phone, and even if I do, there's still a good several minutes before they get to me. I want something to give me an advantage over this fatass. I don't have to kill him. Just maybe shoot him in the legs so he can't go after me, then call the cops. I mean, look at Canadia. They're gun nuts but they don't have half as much crime as we do. Had I lived in Canadia I probably wouldn't own a gun. But our society is fucked in the head. And nobody can help that.
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Post by 5m4llP0X on Mar 12, 2005 14:38:56 GMT -5
Hmm...Human population control. I was thinking about doing an abortion rights topic, but I want to gague the reactions from this topic (and maybe a few others) before I open that can of worms. (Please, no more comments about this. I want to wait on that one.)
As far as your hunting comment goes: We have animals put on the Wild life protection list for that reason. I would agree that hunting for sport is bullshit. unlike fish, you cannot simply catch and release. If you hunt, you should use the meat. I do not, however, beleive hunting itself should be banned. The restrictions placed upon it should be heightened, though. Deer Pharamone, feed, and major high-tech gadgets should not be in play when hunting. It should be you, your weapon, and your tracking skillz. A scope is alloud, but no silencers, cameras, telescopes or stupid shit like that. If you suck at what you do, then you need to pratice.
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Post by nick on Mar 12, 2005 20:56:44 GMT -5
I don't understand why people are so against hunting for sport. As a vegetarian, I don't condone eating meat, but if someone is going to eat an animal, shooting it in the wild is much more humane than buying meat that was taken from an animal raised on a commercial farm.
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Post by TheLance on Mar 13, 2005 5:51:58 GMT -5
If you want to hunt, come to New Zealand. We've got literally dozens of pest species (deer, goats, possums... you name it, we've got an issue with it) just begging to be wasted in the name of ecology.
And don't give me this 'only criminals will have guns' and 'self defence' bullshit. It's a fact that nearly all gunfights occur at ranges of 10 feet or less. Learn a marital art. At that range you'll have time to get close before they can draw their weapon. If you're worried about home defence, get a doberman. Those things are tanks, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if a handgun bullet or two wouldn't put them down. Plus, you can't shoot your neighbours with them. As for the only criminals will have guns thing, maybe so, but so will the cops. If you haven't noticed, most countries sans guns have lower crime rates. ESPECIALLY gun crime rates, because most gun related crimes are performed by angry numbskulls pissed off at their wives or something.
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Post by Zer0 on Mar 13, 2005 14:38:31 GMT -5
Perhaps we should just kill stupid people. I got a dorm full of brainless twats who would be GREAT for hunting. Although, they are large targets, and all you need to bring them out into the open is a penis or anything that causes your brain to function less efficiently.
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Post by stampede on Mar 13, 2005 19:43:15 GMT -5
first responce to zero. mental image, guy with dick out and rifle standing outside your dorm waiting for sport hunting. lol nextI think that this gun issue is suprisingly complex.for starters, it is basically inhuman to not let someone hunt, that is how humans survived for thousands of years, but the only guns that you can hunt with really are rifles, and shotguns(for birds and stuff). any assault rifle, and every handgun ever made was made for the single perpose of killing people. there is absolutely no other reason to build such a device. so the simple answer would be to not allow handguns and the big nasty guns. I mean you can't exactly conceal a rifle. problem solved right??? apparently virtually every citizen on switzerland has a handgun. and they have virtualy no gun related deaths. strange. so i guess either everyone has to have a gun or knowone should have a gun. either of those would work. the problem comes when one person has a gun and the other doesn't(duh). The problem is then when some people don't want guns and some people do. I really hate guns, at least for people to people fights. shooting something for food is fine. but shooting a person because you are mad at them or think they are bad seems stupid to me. But i'm not going to get into that now.
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Post by nick on Mar 13, 2005 20:31:30 GMT -5
next I think that this gun issue is suprisingly complex.for starters, it is basically inhuman to not let someone hunt, that is how humans survived for thousands of years The problem is that for most of the history of humans, guns wern't around so people had to hunt without them.
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Post by 5m4llP0X on Mar 14, 2005 1:49:52 GMT -5
If you want to hunt, come to New Zealand. We've got literally dozens of pest species (deer, goats, possums... you name it, we've got an issue with it) just begging to be wasted in the name of ecology. And don't give me this 'only criminals will have guns' and 'self defence' bullshit. It's a fact that nearly all gunfights occur at ranges of 10 feet or less. Learn a marital art. At that range you'll have time to get close before they can draw their weapon. If you're worried about home defence, get a doberman. Those things are tanks, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if a handgun bullet or two wouldn't put them down. Plus, you can't shoot your neighbours with them. As for the only criminals will have guns thing, maybe so, but so will the cops. If you haven't noticed, most countries sans guns have lower crime rates. ESPECIALLY gun crime rates, because most gun related crimes are performed by angry numbskulls pissed off at their wives or something. Those countries who do not have guns also have a stronger and better education standards. Also teachers in America are treated like jokes. So, you cannot say the elimination of guns is the reason for their low crime-rate.
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Post by TheLance on Mar 14, 2005 2:07:02 GMT -5
Those countries who do not have guns also have a stronger and better education standards. Also teachers in America are treated like jokes. So, you cannot say the elimination of guns is the reason for their low crime-rate. Not really. We have compulsory education down here, and there's still crime. If a kid doesn't want to learn, they're not going to. Besides, guns don't cause crime, they just make it a lot easier. The main cause of crime is poverty. Or excessive richness, but that sort of crime doesn't often involve guns.
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Post by 5m4llP0X on Mar 14, 2005 2:17:50 GMT -5
If you teach a kid how to make something of themselves they're going to. If you give them a shit education then they're going to find any way they can to survive.
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Post by TheLance on Mar 15, 2005 22:05:20 GMT -5
You can't teach a kid how to make something of themselves. You can give them the skills to do so, but then it's on their own back to do something about it.
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Post by 5m4llP0X on Mar 16, 2005 1:25:18 GMT -5
Even still, schools don't even provide that. Shcools have been dilluted and distorted by many over-protective parrents and corrupt politicians that it's become nothing more then a daycare. With the lacking necessary tools schools provide, it's no wonder so many turn to drug dealing or petty criminal shit to get by.
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Post by TheLance on Mar 16, 2005 1:28:06 GMT -5
Eh. I wouldn't know, I didn't go to a school in the US. Most accounts seem pretty negative about them though.
Still, I think you're not putting enough emphasis on personal responsibility. It shouldn't matter how horrible someone's childhood is, if someone breaks the law, especially if they commit a violent crime, then they made the choice to do it. Not their parents, not their overworked teachers, not society.
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Post by 5m4llP0X on Mar 16, 2005 1:31:10 GMT -5
No doubt, but guns should not be blamed for their stupid choices. They should, THEN the parrents. (Blame is seldomly put only on one person. It, like water, does trickle)
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Post by TheLance on Mar 16, 2005 1:38:50 GMT -5
You can't blame a gun if someone's a moron, but morons shouldn't be allowed to have guns. And, to be fair, if one group in society (especially when then group includes everyone in society) isn't allowed something, then no one should. People can't handle the sort of responsibility that a gun demands.
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Post by 5m4llP0X on Mar 16, 2005 1:44:05 GMT -5
This is why education should hold a stronger presence in the lives of people. Much like Drivers Ed (which does work), they should have Gun safety. Make it a requirement in order to get a License to purchase a gun. (They already have a CWP, so why not just extend it?)
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Post by TheLance on Mar 16, 2005 1:53:19 GMT -5
Despite Driver's Ed, people are still retarded about cars. (No, I don't like cars, either). Education ain't some cure all tablet for numbskullery.
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Post by 5m4llP0X on Mar 16, 2005 2:03:20 GMT -5
No, but it does help. It's better then just letting them wallow in their filth.
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Post by stampede on Mar 16, 2005 17:50:45 GMT -5
hahahaha, drivers ed, hahahaha. i didn't learn how to drive in drivers ed. my mom taught me. Drivers ed was a joke. it doesn't do shit. except waste time. to get a drivers license all you should have to do is prove you know the driveing related laws(all of them, not just a few that they put on that test), and prove that you can drive(a fucking stick). many people get a license and still can't drive. my car was totalled by a little 16 year old driving your brand new car that daddy bought her. thanks daddy for spending the money on your girl while neglecting her at my expence. you should have to pass an iq test to be able to do anything outside of your house. if just smart people had guns problem solved, and if you say you can't descriminate against dumb people i say why not. you have to be pretty dumb to shoot someone anyway, it's almost impossible to get away with it.
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